BONUS: Polyamory & Ethical Non-Monogamy in Relationship with Dr Simon Fokt

In this bonus episode I talk with scholar, educator, philosopher, and writer, Dr Simon Fokt. He has been on the show before. He shares his thoughts and experiences with polyamory and ethical non-monogamy.  We talk about what it is, the benefits and risks, social impact and so much more.  Check it out, you just might learn something!

Links:
Simon's website
Medium
YouTube
TikTok
X
Instagram
Facebook
Sex at Dawn book (Amazon)
PolySecure book   (Amazon)

Transcript

Bill Simpson: Hi, and welcome to the men on the path to love podcast. Bonus episode polyamory and ethical nonmonogamy in relationship with Doctor Simon Fokt. I'm Bill Simpson, your host, I coach men who wanna stop suffering in relationship and who want a deeper sense of love and connection. I coach them how to do it and how to be the best version of themselves and live the life they love. In this bonus episode, I talked with Scholar educator, philosopher, and writer, Doctor Simon Fokt, who have had on the show before.

He shares his thoughts and experiences with polyamory and ethical nonmonogamy. We talk about what it is, the pros and cons, the social impact and so much more. So stick around. You just might learn something. It's the men on the path to love podcast.

Simon, welcome back to men on the path to love.

Simon Fokt: Thank you for having me back, pal. It's great to be here again with you.

Bill Simpson: Well, the reason why I I asked you back is when we talked previously, you touched briefly on open relationships, polyamorous relationship, and That's something that I've been wanting to discuss on the podcast for some time, and I appreciate you agreeing to address the topic. First of all, just for our listeners, Can you explain to them, but, you know, specifically, what is polyamorous?

Simon Fokt: Yeah. Of course. So, polyamory specifically, maybe I'll I'll speak about in a moment, but it broadly comes under the umbrella of ethical non monogamy, which is sometimes abbreviated as e and m. And basically what people mean by this is that, well, you are not being monogamous, so you are not tying yourself exclusively to a single partner. But instead, well, you're exploring collections with other people, be it emotional collections or sexual collections with other people.

Simon Fokt: And that's the important part. You aren't doing it in an ethical way. So ethical means that, well, 1st of all, there is no deception involved. So you're not in any way, shape, or form deceiving your partner about what is going on. That you even have other people that you're with or maybe what are you doing with those other people, or to what extent, like, what kind of things are okay, what kind of things are not okay, All of this should be negotiated and fully consensual with all the parties involved.

Simon Fokt: So we hear about so many people having those situations where they would have lovers or, I know, mistresses or or, somebody else. And, you know, they are non monogamous. They are definitely having multiple relationships or multiple sexual relationships with people at the same time, but these people don't know about each other. Oh, maybe they know that there's somebody there, but they think friend rather than a sex partner, for example, and things like this. And that means that those people's consent is being violated.

Simon Fokt: They are not treated as, a manual count will have it as ends in themselves. They are rather treated as means to an end. So, basically, they're not treated as fully human people who have their autonomy who have the right to decide, are they okay with this, or are they not okay with this? Obviously, if people don't know about certain things, they cannot make reasonable decisions about, am I comfortable with this? Am I ready for this or anything like this?

Simon Fokt: So ethical non monogony is trying to avoid any of that sort of thing. And instead, be absolutely open about everything to everyone so that everyone can autonomously make their own decisions about what they want or do not want to engage with. And then there is very different levels, let's say, or, very different forms of ethical non monogamy. And, you mentioned polyamory. So polyamory is the situation in which people will have multiple loving relationships.

Simon Fokt: Rather than just, for example, sexual relationships or close friendships or something like this. And in this situation, people can have more than 1 partner than they are either. Potentially living with together, potentially, I don't know, having children with together, but potentially only, like, you know, being in a loving relationship, but actually not living together anything like this and only having somebody who's, appearing in their life more, or less regularly, there can also be forms of this sort of relationship. So sometimes people wants to everything to be exactly equal. So say, for example, there are three people who are in a polyamorous relationship, and they are all treating each other as, equally important in this relationship.

Simon Fokt: But sometimes people prefer to say, like, one of those relationships is primary, and the other ones are secondary, and the other ones have to kind give way to the main relationship. Sometimes it happens because, for example, people in the main relationship have children together, and they wanted to have other relationships as well, but they recognize that the importance of this kind of core main relationship takes priority because they need to take care of the children, for example.

Bill Simpson: Right.

Simon Fokt: And there can be multiple different forms of this. Now that's polyamory, but there's a lot of other types of non monogamous. Sometimes people are only an open relationship means that they only have one loving, emotionally attached relationship, but they also have sex with other people. And It might be they just have one night stands with other people or maybe they have regular ongoing sexual partners. But those are not loving relationships.

Simon Fokt: Sometimes people just go swinging, for example, in which means that they don't even have, like, any ongoing relationships. Maybe they sleep with other people, but only do it together at a party or something like this and never anything else. But what unites all of those things together is this part of, well, like I said, ethical non monogamy. So you're not monogamous. But you're being fully open, consensual, unethical about it.

Bill Simpson: Yeah. And that makes all the difference, I would think, because

Simon Fokt: Mhmm.

Bill Simpson: It it takes out that whole deception and being covert and all those things that, could, potentially harm our relationship.

Simon Fokt: Absolutely. We've got research that shows that people who call themselves monogamous are actually cheating on their partners and astonishing numbers. And, we know that humans are, well, very bad at being monogamous, frankly, and people who have decided to practice ethical non monogamy. Kind of, you know, take this into account and say, like, okay. Well, maybe if we are doing it anyway, might as well do it well and do it properly.

Simon Fokt: It's interesting if if you or the listeners are interested, there is an excellent book on this topic called Sex as Don.

Bill Simpson: Say that title again. Of course. It's called sex at dawn, sex at dawn. Okay.

Simon Fokt: Yes. Exactly. And, the dawn in there is the dawn of humanity. And the, what the authors are exploring is whether humans are kind of naturally monogamous or how did sex look like? For prehistoric humans.

Simon Fokt: Obviously, we have very little indication of what it was like because, well, prehistoric people did not live in a history, so we don't really know. But the main hypothesis of the book is that prehistoric humans were more likely to be polygamous than monogamous, and that the main reason why humans have started being monogamous was the invention of agriculture. And the reason for that is that, before that humans basically didn't really own property as much. And they would live in those kind of, nomadic tribes, and they would move from place to place. And it would be very often the case that the child and the sort of tribe is neck everyone's child, you know, it takes a village to raise a child.

Simon Fokt: And so so basically what they what they are arguing is that humans and men, especially, did not have this incentive actually confirm their paternity. Because it's not like they were investing any more resources into this child than absolutely everyone else in the tribe anyway.

Bill Simpson: Right.

Simon Fokt: Right. So everyone, it was kind of like everyone's child in the tribe. Whereas what happens with the invention of agriculture is that people stop owning property. And once you start owning property, a question arises who inherits your property.

Bill Simpson: Right.

Simon Fokt: And this is the point, which they argue in which monodomy and for the sake of ensuring paternity, has taken primacy. And this is why they think that monogamy has been, like, the most, you know, popular way of organizing relationships in human history because, well, humans own property. And then the question is who who inherits your property.

Bill Simpson: So it was a a whole economic thing. It it wasn't

Simon Fokt: a mess. So it's kind of like a historical economic explanation. And, you know, I'm I'm quoting from the book. I'm not necessarily trying to say in here that they they are right. Right.

Simon Fokt: They're giving some, like, convincing arguments for, for this. So I recommend, that you and the listeners maybe have a look at this. The reason why I bring it up is because of this context of, well, so many people cheat. Right? And they take it also as this evidence that, well, maybe humans were never really meant to be monogamous in the first place.

Simon Fokt: Right? If it was natural to us to be monogamous, we would find it easy. But we don't.

Bill Simpson: Right. Yeah.

Simon Fokt: Make me don't. I if we found it easier, then nobody would have any need to cheat in the first place.

Bill Simpson: Yeah. And then I would think you didn't mention the economic piece, and then there's the Mhmm. The religious piece.

Simon Fokt: Yeah. Of course. Mean, depending obviously on your reviews and religion, depending, how how religious you are as well, people who are maybe seeing religion as you know, developing from cultural, needs of of humans. The religion is kind of codifying what humans thought was right. It's doing it in a spiritual way, but it's, you know, it's basically conveying what the humans of the time thought was the right to do.

Simon Fokt: And, obviously, that would be partially also economically motivated.

Bill Simpson: Yeah. It's the right thing to do, quote, unquote, yet it's really hard.

Simon Fokt: Of course. Yeah. Of course.

Bill Simpson: You know, it's a high bar, I think, for a lot of

Simon Fokt: folks. Absolutely.

Bill Simpson: I have to be transparent here because my work at the health clinic as a as a mind body educator and an integrative therapy practitioner, the people that come to me, polyamorous or in open relationships. When they come to me, some of them are traumatized. Some of them had really bad experiences. And I don't wanna color my opinion or judgment of it because that's just one side. Tell me first, some of the challenges that can happen because I've certainly heard my share.

Bill Simpson: And and I and I wanna hear, you know, the other side of it, the the benefit.

Simon Fokt: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And so I think that he will it will not be difficult at all to find people who are in, non monogamous groups relationships who have experienced problems or various sorts But, I mean, it will not be equally very difficult to find people in monogamous relationships because there's a lot of problems. And I think that as far as I know, there is no good research that specifically shows that people in non monogamous relationships have more problems, but I don't think it's particularly different. What is definitely the case is that non monogamous relationships carry with them a larger risk.

Simon Fokt: When you are deciding to be in this sort of relationship, you are taking into account the fact that the certain kind of security that you have in the monogamous relationship, which comes from just the institution of monogamous relationship is just not that. Right? It might be that your partner will meet somebody else. Whom they are more attracted to or who is at this point in life better for them or who whatever and that they would prefer to move on with that person. Right?

Simon Fokt: And this is a risk that you just need to take. Right? This is something that is very difficult for many people, and this is probably why non monogamy is not a perfect choice for everyone. And I would, by no means, encourage people who do not feel like they can take this sort of risk to do this. Oh, sure.

Simon Fokt: But I think that it also opens the opportunity to create this sort safety and the relationship, the kind of reassurance that, yes, we're going to stay together and be together, not through the kind of like institutional means of the structure of the relationship.

Bill Simpson: Right.

Simon Fokt: But rather through, well, just being securely attached to each other, being, you know, being the person that the other one actually wants to be with and creating this bond, this strong personal bond. That's not an institutional bond, but this personal bond, which ensures that you are going to still be together. I think that realistically speaking, even with this sort of bond, think it is true that non monogamous relationships tend to have a higher potential for just being a bit more precarious because, you know, mean, that's just how humans work. If you never meet anyone you think you might also have a relationship with, then you will not do that. The chances of you meeting somebody like this increase, massively when you're in a non monogamous relationship.

Simon Fokt: And even if it is a open relationship rather than a polyamorous relationship. So you're only kind of exploring the sexual side of it rather than emotional sign. Well, sex is a great way to develop emotions. So, so, there is always this danger that you will fall in love with the person you initially only, seeing for, for some bedroom fun. And, well, again, it's a risk that you're taking.

Simon Fokt: The benefits of it on the other hand is just like so many things in life. You know, it's a kind of high risk high return game. So quite often, if you you can decide to take lesser risks and you will get, you know, something out of it as well. It's not like this sort of economic exchange type thing, but, you know, what I'm what I'm getting Right. You take this greater risk because there is something in it that you actually really want.

Simon Fokt: So the obvious things, that, well, You just get to have a lot more variety. You get to experience some things that you would not be able to experience otherwise. So It's kind of a big driving force for people who have, more of them. I don't know, need for adventure in life or need for variety. Exactly.

Simon Fokt: And this might be sexual variety, but it also might be a variety of just types of relationships. I'll give you a great example of this. So I wouldn't be here talking about this. If I wasn't my son, I'm monogamous. I think Right.

Bill Simpson: Of course.

Simon Fokt: Listeners by now. But, I what I really love about, the kind of having more freedom and determining what kinds of relationships I enter with. We we use the concept of relationship ladder sometimes. You know? The concept of relationship ladder is that there's certain steps that you're taking towards a relationship, and it's kind of like predefined how it goes.

Simon Fokt: You know? You go on a 1st date, and then you have your first kiss. And then maybe you you're going on a holiday together. Or then maybe you have sex, then maybe you decide to move in together, then maybe you get married. And and those steps can be going in different order, obviously, depending on the culture you're in, maybe you want to wait with sex until after marriage, if you if that's your thing, maybe he wants to, you know, but the point is that there's like a ladder of escalation.

Simon Fokt: You know? And it always often very often feels to people, like, unless you get to the next step, there is no point taking the earliest steps. This is why so many guys hate getting friend zoned. Right? Because it's this like, oh, I was on this ladder.

Simon Fokt: I was getting that. I was like, almost getting to the next step that I really wanted, but I didn't and we stopped at at the earliest step. What I really like about how I started approaching relationships where people have to be coming on monogamous is that you can actually embrace the idea of stopping at a certain level of the ladder and just, like, really enjoying this connection or what it is. And I think this is a great game that you get from being non monogamous. So I'll give you an example.

Simon Fokt: I have this friend whom I met, don't remember. I think we met at a certain party. We really connected, fancy each other, and decided to start going for a date. But at the time, she was just out of another relationship with her ex partner. And she said that she wasn't really ready to, like, develop it further or might start having sex have any kind of more involved relationship.

Simon Fokt: And instead, what we did is, like, we just cut all the bit, chatted, and and all this. And, since then, this kind of relationship has continued for about a year right now. And I don't know. I've been, like, having the best conversations with her. I've been staying over been staying over for the night, for example, we would cuddle an all that night never even kissed her.

Simon Fokt: It's I feel this really nice connection with person that I'm kind of physically intimate with because we cuddle a lot. I don't know. When we're sitting together, we would embrace and watch a film together or something like that. Right? But there is nothing wrong.

Simon Fokt: And it's kind of fantastic. I really like it. And I think that being kind of like, this non non monogamy, very often people think like, oh, you just wanna have sex with a lot of people? No. Actually, I mean, yes.

Simon Fokt: But also, you can also embrace the fact that there's so many other types of and levels of collection that you can have with people that you kind of don't even really think about. Normally. And it opens this this world for you, I think. That's a great benefit of it as well.

Bill Simpson: And when I hear you say that in the friendship you have at this woman,

Simon Fokt: Mhmm.

Bill Simpson: That's like true intimacy. It's not just sex. It's deeper than that. It's just a Absolutely. Yeah.

Bill Simpson: Level that, I think we all need for that connection.

Simon Fokt: Absolutely. Yeah. It kind of feels like almost skipping the step of not having a sexual relationship and then just having this kind of close intimate friendship.

Bill Simpson: Well, and it makes me think of, I think back in my college days and kind of being conditioned to conquer and, you know, the whole thing was to have sex And

Simon Fokt: Mhmm.

Bill Simpson: And then the next day, I'm like, oh god. You know? And I remember one particular incident where I was lying in the bed with this woman, and I'm like Mhmm. I know this doesn't sound like how I supposed to be conditioned, but It'd been nice to have just cuddled with her and just hold each other and just relax and enjoy that intimacy. And You know, and I I just was too terrified to be that vulnerable.

Bill Simpson: It was like all the expectations. I just had to do what I had to do and then regretted it at the end because that true intimacy would have just been to chill. You know?

Simon Fokt: Absolutely. And I I've written about this as well. I think we probably touched on this in the previous episode as well. That I think that men are so often socialized to only ever receive intimacy through sex.

Bill Simpson: Right. But

Simon Fokt: only ever received this, I know validation through sex or this, you know, feeling like they are worth something. And it's a great shame because there's so many other ways in which we can do that. I'm definitely just, like, just touch our kind words or spending time together. And otherwise, sometimes what we would actually prefer, but we're not socialized to do that because it's like you say, it's too vulnerable or it's unmanly or something like this. So I think it's a separate topic because that applies regardless if you're in a poly or, or open or, or a monogamous relationship.

Simon Fokt: But it's definitely something that you get to explore much more, I think, if you're in an open or a non monogamous relationship.

Bill Simpson: And I think talking about societal norms, their challenges, I guess, with with both, I mean, monogamous or non monogamous, what do you see as the challenges with non monogamous relationships.

Simon Fokt: It's kind of like both a curse and a blessing, both a challenge and also something, you know, like, That's what challenges are. Challenges make you grow.

Bill Simpson: Right.

Simon Fokt: Right? Like, if if life had no challenges, you would never become a better human. And I think that one of the greater challenges of anonymous relationships is the fact that, well, you're not playing from the script. You're not ensuring the security of your relationship, just doing things the way they are meant to be done, whatever that means. Right?

Simon Fokt: No. You kind of need to figure it out yourself. What you get out of this, like, again, it's all this freedom and all this variety and all of that. But what it means is that, well, you need to figure out yourself how you're going to do that as if you need to communicate with your partner and ensure that everything is consensual and all that, well, you need to communicate with your partner. And you will not ensure that your partner is okay with things.

Simon Fokt: If you just say like, hey. I'm doing that today. Bye. No. There will be there is some communication involved.

Simon Fokt: Right? Your partner might have thoughts and feelings about this. And and likely, you will need to figure out a good compromise. You will need to figure out what works doesn't work. Sometimes it comes down to, you know, very simple things of, I don't know, how am I spending my Saturday?

Simon Fokt: Because my partner wants to do something on the my other partner wants to do something else on this Saturday, and then you need to kind of figure out. This is kind of the more simple things, but then it's more complex as well. You know, where are we going in life? Mhmm. Right?

Simon Fokt: Are we wanting to, I don't know, move to the suburbs and have kids, or do we want to stay in the city center and party? What are we in life? Who is, like, going to determine in which direction are we moving as a relation if you're, for example, in a polyamorous relationship wouldn't involving more than, than two people. And similarly, even if you're in an open relationship in which you're only having sex with other people, then your partner might also have thoughts and preferences about this. So, you know, your partner might be okay with you doing some things, but some other things feel to intimate, so you might need to only reserve it for the relationship.

Simon Fokt: Or maybe there are specific times, or maybe it's, you know, there are specific places in which they feel this can happen and then that is not, for example, or maybe they're specific. I don't know. You can go, like, you can do whatever you want. But, like, if we're going on holiday, going together. You're not going on a holiday with someone else, for example.

Simon Fokt: You know, people are different, and people have very different ideas of what matters to them. And you need to figure it out. You need to negotiate it, and you need to really communicate about this. So like I say, it's kind of both a curse and a challenge because it's a curse because, well, you spend time on this, and you can go wrong. Right?

Simon Fokt: You can make mistakes, and that's just life. But it's also an opportunity because what makes you better at it? As with so many other skills, like, well, how do you get better at things? You just practice the thing. Same way as you exercise your muscles, same way as you exercise your memory and exercise your, I don't know, math skills or whatever else, you also exercise your communication skills.

Simon Fokt: And by just basically doing it and also, you know, doing it when it's challenging and doing it not when it's easy, especially with it. Exactly. Right? When when it actually really takes some effort to figure it out, that's when you get better at it. And, you know, I think that this is also something that and every, book about polyamory you'll find quite early on as well, is just the reminder that we're all just human, and we make mistakes.

Simon Fokt: And we screw up sometimes, and sometimes we assume that the other person knew something that we thought we told them, but they didn't fully understand or had a different idea of it or something like that. And then it doesn't work out. And it's just so important that we approach these sort of things with just kindness and understanding. And assuming that, you know, the other person wasn't evil. They were just a bit stupid or something like this.

Simon Fokt: And also, you know, if you are the person who has caused sadness or harm to the other. Also approach it from the perspective of, oh, I really don't want to harm my partner. Like, I need to, you know, review what I'm doing. And this kind of emotional and mental openness to just negotiate, I think, everything, and actually really kind of working it out new is really what is, I think, a big prerequisite for this more sexual and relationship openness. Yeah.

Bill Simpson: And open communications is the is the key here. And Uh-huh. And you said it's a human experience, whether it's monogamous or non monogamous, we're gonna have the same issues. And, you know, I was thinking in my head, like, are there rules to follow? And then I'm like, no.

Bill Simpson: I guess you make your own rules as long as you both, they're all are an agreement or at least can come to some sort of acceptance.

Simon Fokt: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that the this is also why it's a bit difficult for some people at the start, at least, because, well, it's much easier to follow rules than to

Bill Simpson: Right.

Simon Fokt: To make it up as you go. And I think, you know, diff people of different personalities will provide different things. Some people have, I don't know if you're familiar or listeners are familiar with the big five, personality traits, but openness to experience is one of those big five personality traits. And I imagine that people who score high on openness to experience there's the kind of people who really like, I don't know, going on holidays to a new place every single time or trying a new meal when they go to a restaurant or going to a different kind of event or club or something like that every time. They would also be the ones who are more likely to be open to reinventing things.

Simon Fokt: And, coming up with new ways of doing renegotiating and all that. Whereas other people, something like that. Other people prefer to, you know, keep things as they are because that's what gives them comfort. And that's totally fine. There's no judgment, and that's just different people.

Simon Fokt: And for those people, it might be that they need something different. And I think that it might also be, that, well, if they do it on monologue, I mean, they would probably do it slightly differently as well.

Bill Simpson: I would think too it takes a lot of courage and and a sense of security to be in that type of relationship. Because all those feelings, you know, jealousy and envy and, you know, in securities all can play in any kind of relationship, and especially in non monogamy, any words to say to say a guy out here who wants to express this to his partner or spouse, you know, how to go about talking about it and and, you know, really expressing the needs, honestly. I mean, I can see you could it would be a big risk. What what are your thoughts on that?

Simon Fokt: Yeah. That's a that is a great question. I mean, it's it's hard to answer because obviously every relationship is different and every Sure. Reason why people might want to do this won't be different. But it's definitely very important to kind of address the issue of of jealousy or envy or some sort of insecurity.

Simon Fokt: I think that I would very much recommend to everyone who wants to try a, open in our non non non non non non government relationship to 1st make sure that the relationship they are already in is secure. Because like I said, by doing this, you are effectively signing up for a higher risk type situation. Right? You are signing up for removing the institutional security of a monogamous relationship from your relationship. So you need to get the security somewhere else.

Simon Fokt: And if your relationship is already a little bit insecure, maybe he wants to be non monogab is because you're actually a bit unhappy with your partner or something like this, that is not a good path because it means that, well, you are removing the little bit of security that that that you had And you're not really you don't really have something else to rest on. Right?

Bill Simpson: It sounds like a way out versus a way into a different type of relationship.

Simon Fokt: I think so. So, if, you know, if you if you're proposing an open relationship as a way to get out of the relationship, then just get out of the donation. That's a more honest way to do this. I think. Right.

Simon Fokt: Right. Right. And I think That could

Bill Simpson: be subconscious, though. You know what I mean?

Simon Fokt: Yeah. Of course. Of course. And, like, I know that it's easy to say from the outside, but realistically, while you are in the relationship, things are not obvious, and you might not really know what you want yourself or where you are, or you might think that, you know, things can be fixed, but, actually, maybe they couldn't or something.

Bill Simpson: I think that's a good point because you have to know what you want. Right? You can't go into it kind of or unless you just wanna explore and say, hey. I'm thinking about this. But I would think you would wanna be secure in yourself and what you really want need versus kind of being, if about it.

Simon Fokt: Absolutely. So this is this comes back to something I think we discussed last time as well, which is that it's so important to know yourself. Yeah. And, is just something that you kind of should do regardless. Right?

Simon Fokt: But it's particularly important in in this context. So, if people want to try to go this path, I think a good way to do that is to actually start by educating themselves a little bit and maybe knowing themselves a little bit more. And there's very helpful materials out there that can can help you with this. And I recently read a fantastic book by Jessica Firm called polysecure. I highly recommend it to people.

Simon Fokt: And, it kind of gives you a breakdown of what to expect from, polyamorous relationships or open relationships. And it what its stresses is this path. It's called polysecure, stresses that kind of secure attachment and relationships. And what it argues for, I think, is absolutely fantastic. So it argues that first of all, you need to be securely attached to each other.

Simon Fokt: But before you can do that properly, you first need to be securely attached to yourself.

Bill Simpson: Right.

Simon Fokt: So the idea is that it's it's a pervasive narrative, which is really quite stupid. Then we we are still doing this. Which is this whole narrative of, you know, having the other half of your apple, Abda, or something like this. Right?

Bill Simpson: Yeah. You're my other half. You're com you complete Yeah.

Simon Fokt: Exactly. And exactly. And this is this narrative in which, like, yeah, it's kind of romantic and all that, but really what it what the undertone of it is that, like, without you, I am not whole.

Bill Simpson: Co dependency.

Simon Fokt: Like, unless you're with me, something is missing. Right? And it's it's kinda, like, it seems like it's a nice thing, but really, it's just not healthy for people. You like, if you're in a relationship, you need to feel like this relationship is adding something to your life is making it better and all that. But if this person is gone, you'll be fine.

Simon Fokt: Yeah. Right? You are secure in yourself, first of all. And I think this is very important when embarking on the journey with ethical nonmonogamy, but do you first try to ask yourself, like, are you actually fine just with yourself? Right?

Simon Fokt: Because by doing so, 1st of all, well, you are taking a slightly larger risk, so it might just happen. But, also, once you are secure with yourself, it becomes so much easier to start being securely attached to other people as well because you know a bit better what it is that creates a secure relationship. You don't need the other person, so you don't behave in such a way that this other person may find cumbersome because you're being needy, for example, or stuff like that. And when it involves more than one person as well, you will probably be less just purely driven by your emotions or your needs and more able to have those calm conversations in which you negotiate things and come to it from a point of, you know, good communication. So to anyone who is wanting to embark on this journey, I would recommend it, 1st of all, they educate themselves maybe a little bit.

Simon Fokt: And once they have done this, that's a good thing maybe to, you know, just point this book to your partner and just say like, hey, you know, I thinking about this because when you come to it from the perspective of, hey, you know, I I've been thinking about this, and I've done some research, and I know what I'm doing. And this is how I will make sure that this is going to be good for us and all this. It's a very different story than when you come to your pot and go, like, I'm a little bit unhappy with how we're doing in here. So how about we sleep with other people? Yeah.

Bill Simpson: Yes, you have a lot better chance doing it the other way. Yeah.

Simon Fokt: Exactly. Right? And I think also it's so important to acknowledge that certain feelings, like, completely regardless of the authors of sex of donor, right, and saying that we are naturally non monogamous, and monogamy is only kind of like a cultural construct that was developed with agriculture. It doesn't matter. We it's been millennia.

Simon Fokt: That we have been cultured to being monogamous. There's millennia of, you know, cultural stereotypes and whatever else that continue to shape our thinking about it. So it's absolutely no wonder that people would find it difficult to reach beyond monogamy. And I think it's very important to acknowledge this. People will have feelings of jealousy.

Simon Fokt: People will feel a little bit insecure about this. I mean, how do you deal with this? Well, you deal with this with love. Frankly. Yeah.

Simon Fokt: To deal with this by making your partner feel like you are there for them no matter what and that all of those other things are not really threatening what you have. And that, you know, you will be there for them, and that it and I think that in a way, I find it kind of even more, beautiful and security promoting to be able to tell your partner or, like, be in the situation in which, look, I could have all of those other people, but I choose you.

Bill Simpson: Right.

Simon Fokt: Rather than just go, like, you know, I'm already in a situation in which I couldn't have all of those people sign with you, and that's it. Right?

Bill Simpson: So, like, like,

Simon Fokt: I have this choice, but I actually actively every single day, choose to be with you. And I think it's a beautiful thing. And, like, when you come to it from this perspective, it can rather than, you know, increase feelings of jealousy, it can actually make the other person really loved and secure.

Bill Simpson: Yeah. That sounds like a big piece, you know, coming from that place of love and compassion and, you know, just being kind to to each other. Well, Simon, I I really appreciate this time today. It you've helped me clarify a lot of things, and I'm sure my listeners as well. Any last minute words you wanna say before, we we wrap up.

Simon Fokt: Thank you very much. Yeah. It's been it's been a pleasure, chatting with you as well. I mean, if you if you want to, explore those topics or educate yourself a bit more, feel free to also, follow me on social media. I talk about polyamory and relationships a fair bit as well.

Simon Fokt: So if you would like to to explore this, and I think the main thing that I want to always always always promote with people is once again this concept of really knowing yourself and really knowing, like, first of all, if this is for you, and there's absolutely no shame in saying yes, and there's absolutely no shame in saying no. And there's also absolutely no shame in saying, I don't know just yet. Wanna be able to go and see. But it is also important to know yourself for the sake of making sure that Well, you don't make stupid mistakes because I feel like so often we also focus, and very rightly so, we focus on, like, the situations in which people make some sort of mistake that ends up being harmful to their partner, but it is not nice to then live with it yourself as well. Like, if you've not spent the time trying to know yourself and figure out what it is that you want, you potentially will need to live until the end of your life.

Simon Fokt: With the, you know, with the thought that you really screwed up. So it's really in your own interest. As well to really properly think about it and know yourself. And if it is something that you want to do, once again, there's so many resources about this right now, then you can use to educate yourself. That will help you know yourself and know what kind of outcome you want.

Simon Fokt: And what I'm hearing you

Bill Simpson: say it's it's being authentic with myself. And authentic with those I'm in relationship with.

Simon Fokt: Absolutely. Again, ethical non monogamy. Everything is open cards. Everything needs to be authentic.

Bill Simpson: Well, Simon, thanks so much. I wish you continued success in all that you were doing. I'll have, your contact information, the books, all that information in my show notes. Thanks so much, and, take good care.

Simon Fokt: Fantastic. Thank you again for the invitation, I had a great time. Bye?

Bill Simpson: And that will bring this bonus episode to an end. I'm Bill Simpson, your host. Thank you so much for listening, and thanks once again to Simon Fokt for sharing his knowledge and experience with us. You can find Simon's contact information in the show notes. Coming up on the next episode of the men on the Path to Love Podcast, have you ever gotten the sense that your spouse partner might not feel safe at times in your relationship.

That could include not feeling safe physically, emotionally, mentally or even spiritually. Maybe you haven't felt safe in 1 or any of those areas. Well, feeling safe in relationship is essential for you to free to be your authentic self to build trust and for the longevity of your relationship. On the next episode, you'll hear Eric's story and how his wounded past caused him to create an unsafe environment and his relation ships and what he did about it. Please join me next time for the safe and sound, how to build safety and trust in relationship at so.

Hey. And if you have a topic you would like for me to cover on this podcast, I would love to hear from you. You can reach me at my website, men on the Path to love.com. That's where you can also set up a free how to communicate better in relationship coaching session with me. And you can download my cheat sheet there too.

5 ways to communicate better in relationship. It's all at men on the path to love.com. Now if you want the world to experience more love like I do, then let all your true friends, your social media friends. Hell, even tell your enemies. Let them know about this podcast.  Please share the link and share the love. And let's make this world a better place. Alright? And until next time, keep your heart open, and stay on the path to love.

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