Men on the Path to Love
Relationship coach Bill Simpson offers stories and wisdom, to inspire men be the best version of themselves in relationship and live the life they love.
Men on the Path to Love
BONUS: Male Friendly, Love Ready: Redefining Masculinity with Jack Kammer
What happens when traditional ideas of masculinity fail to serve men in their relationships and personal growth? Jack Kammer has spent decades exploring this question through his groundbreaking work in social work, radio, and advocacy for a more balanced conversation about gender.
In this BONUS episode you'll hear our conversation that takes us beyond simplistic notions of what it means to be a man and embraces the full spectrum of human characteristics rather than limiting himself to narrow definitions of masculinity. Jack offers refreshing insights drawing from his experience as founder of Male-Friendly Media platform, hosting the radio show In a Man's Shoes, and as the author of the book Good Will Toward Men: Women Talk Candidly About the Balance of Power Between the Sexes.
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Hi and welcome to the Men on the Path to Love podcast bonus episode. The male-friendly, love-ready redefining masculinity with Jack Kammer episode. I'm Bill Simpson, your host In this bonus episode. I'm joined by Jack Kammer, a thought-provoking voice who spent decades at the intersection of social work, masculinity and media. Jack holds a master's in social work and is the founder of the Working Well With Men, a consultancy that provided the social work profession with tools to help men give and receive love more fully. He's hosted the radio show In a Man's Shoes, served as director of the National Congress for Men and he's authored the eye-opening book Goodwill Toward Men: Women Talk Candidly About the Balance of Power Between the Sexes.
Bill Simpson:And today Jack continues to challenge and expand the conversation around masculinity through his platform, malefriendlymediacom, where he unpacks what's happening in the ever-evolving world of the manosphere. This is a powerful conversation about love, equity, purpose and why the way we talk about men matters, especially if we want better relationships and a healthier culture. So stick around, you just might learn something. It's the Men on the Path to Love podcast. Welcome, jack, to Men on the Path to Love.
Jack Kammer:It's a good path to be on, isn't it Bill?
Bill Simpson:Absolutely, you and I. We're on a love mission here, man, and I really appreciate what you're doing out here.
Jack Kammer:Well, I appreciate what you're doing. I've listened to several of your shows and I'm very impressed with who you are, what you're doing and how you do it.
Bill Simpson:Thank you very much, man. And back at you. You know, when I first saw your name, I have had to say I thought that was your male exotic dancer handle I know. So hammer with a k, you know with an h with a camera.
Jack Kammer:That's, that's right. And the funny thing is that I didn't even know it was a funny name until I was in high school. Because in high school, what do your high school buddies think they need to do? They think they need to rib you, you know, to give you a hard time any way they can. And so, my friends, I've accepted that my name is funny. I've realized that it's funny. My friends call me pneumatic street repair device.
Bill Simpson:I like that.
Jack Kammer:If you want to go with that.
Bill Simpson:Well, you know I used to get teased because my last name is Simpson. I would get prank calls Is Homer home? Where's Marge? You know that kind of stuff. And then the OJ thing, and you know. So I've been teased as well and it's interesting that you brought that up, because that's kind of a guy thing man. You know we bust each other's balls. And guy thing man, you know we bust each other's balls and some of it's fun and good and some of it not so good.
Jack Kammer:What do you think Some can go over the line. I think for the most part it's done for a positive reason, just sort of to. You know, scrape the barnacles off your hole, you know, just to make sure you're not too touchy because you know, as your buddies know, your life is not going to be smooth sailing all the time and they're sort of helping you, you know, deal with being ribbed or mocked or disrespected, you know, keeping you from being too touchy.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, and it kind of builds some calluses around that sensitivity, you know, yeah. So my show, I tell my story, I tell other people's stories. What's your story? To get you where you are today? And I know that may take a lot of time, but go for it.
Jack Kammer:Well, you know, I think I can do it pretty quickly, because I listened to your show about being tired of always being the problem Men, getting tired of always being the problem. I just listened to that and I thought this helped me sort of crystallize what I think is probably the difference in approach between you and me. I am a social worker, a retired social worker, and many people think of social workers primarily as being people who provide therapy, a clinical service. Now you, as a coach, do a lot of clinical work and you work at a behavioral health clinic, so you work with individual men. I was the kind of social worker that's called a macro social worker. I am not nice enough, I am not patient enough, I am not long-suffering enough to work with individual men on their individual problems, and it's probably a character flaw of mine. But on the other hand, I do want to work on systems that are upstream from many of the problems that show up to you in individual men in your individual therapeutic practice.
Jack Kammer:So the connection here is that I got into male gender issues through the process of hearing two women talk about how their boyfriends were the problem. This was when I was on a co-ed softball team and we played on Tuesday nights and two consecutive Tuesday nights with two consecutive members, female members of this co-ed softball team. I was being regaled by these two women about tales of woe about their boyfriends and both of them ended their stories by saying I don't even remember what the stories were, what the details were. Both of them ended their stories by saying and so he's a real jerk, don't you think?
Bill Simpson:Oh geez.
Jack Kammer:And both times. Both times all I could say was well, maybe he's a jerk, but you know, based on what you've told me about the situation from his point of view, maybe it looks like such and such.
Jack Kammer:And again, I don't remember what the details were, and both times after I offered an alternative explanation for his behavior other than his being a real jerk, both times these women said oh my God, I never thought of that, of that. And so I worry about men who don't have the wherewithal maybe economically, maybe cognitively, maybe socially, maybe emotionally, don't have the wherewithal to find great resources like you and tap into great resources like you. I worry a lot about the men that are really at the bottom of our social hierarchies, who are just being beaten and beaten and dismissed and treated badly by people who should also do what you urge men to do very rightly Be calm, be respectful, be open-minded, be flexible and think about your part in the problems that you have in your life. I would like it very much, and one of my missions in life is to urge that women return the favor.
Bill Simpson:Absolutely. I've mentioned many times that I see mostly women in my clinical practice and I hear similar kind of stories, right. And then I would say, well, what if he were to say this, what if he were to say that? And they're like, oh yeah, that would make all the difference. That's one side of it and the other pocket is well, you know, he may have responded differently, had you X, y, z. I make it clear that it goes both ways. It has to. Yeah, yeah.
Jack Kammer:And the zeitgeist, the spirit of our time is very much women, good men, bad Women, perfect men, barely human. I mean, there actually is a poster that is available for sale that says women are perfect, and it's sort of a really exaggerated version of who are the cool kids in the high school cafeteria.
Bill Simpson:Oh yeah, you know, women are the cool kids.
Jack Kammer:Men are the out group. Now there can be men who can work their way into the in group by, you know, agreeing with women about what all those other guys are like, but they're not like that because you know they're enlightened and cool. It really is. It's a fashion. It's a fashion Right now. Men are out of fashion. Our style of being humans is out of fashion and I understand the idea of fashion. But believing that fashion is immutable and absolutely right is crazy because you know in 10 years this whole thing could turn around is crazy because you know in 10 years this whole thing could turn around and it could be men who are feeling really great about themselves and downing and demeaning women every chance we get. I hope it doesn't happen.
Bill Simpson:The nature of trends and fashion, and you know, that's just the way it is it's cycles? Yeah.
Jack Kammer:Yeah, and it would be better if we get out of the cycle and just try to try to flatten the undulation of the who's good and who's bad. Well, we're both good, we're both bad, and we're really not that much better than each other, no matter how you want to look at it.
Bill Simpson:And we're not that much different, frankly, yes, it's more of the conditioning that we've, you know, succumbed to.
Bill Simpson:And I had an episode where I talk about, you know, the fear of being a feminized man and that that was something that happened to me personally where a coach I was working with, there was an issue that we had and we were going back and forth and his whole thing was oh, you're sounding just like a feminized man. You know that hit a nerve, because that's not the point Maintaining masculinity and adding a few good traits to go along with it.
Jack Kammer:Yes, exactly the way I like to talk about that is to talk about a contrast, a difference, an improvement to the idea that we have in our minds that the alpha male is the ideal.
Bill Simpson:Right right.
Jack Kammer:Well, a couple of things about that. Recent research has found that in a lot of species, it's not the alpha male that is really the most influential, because the alpha male might be a son of a bitch and nobody really wants to put up with them, and they want. They're looking for an opportunity to get rid of them as soon as they can. The person who's most influential is the person who is usually, you know, the woman, as if you know, having a really sexy woman who's very fertile and going to make a lot of babies is the ideal that we should all strive for. Instead of thinking about being alpha males, I like to suggest that we think about being alphabet males.
Bill Simpson:Say more.
Jack Kammer:Well, pick up all the other 25 good characteristics of being a human being and having the whole panoply of options in your repertoire. For what behavior, what mindset, what idea is going to serve me best right now?
Bill Simpson:Yeah, you know, I think of the alpha males that I've worked with and early on you know they're really, you know, exhibiting that they're an alpha male and that's how they see the world. And this is usually in a conflict in relationship, and so I say to them I ask them, and not in a snarky way, but sincerely.
Jack Kammer:How is that working for you? Yeah, yeah.
Bill Simpson:And they're like well, you know, they don't know what to say because it ain't working for them.
Jack Kammer:Yeah, I'm a winner, but I'm a miserable son of a bitch, you know. Another thing I like to point out is the whole idea of what is feminine. It has gone through huge changes that we don't even recognize were changes, even recognize war changes, for instance, did you know that when a fellow named Corriette I believe his name was a lord of some sort in Britain, he went on a trip to Italy and he returned with this thing called a fork, a table fork, and guess what? He was ridiculed for being feminized because real men eat with their hands.
Bill Simpson:That's right.
Jack Kammer:Did you know that wristwatches were originally considered feminine, but they became okay. They became acceptable to real men, man, when, in World War I, the fighter pilots needed to know how much time they had left to stay in the air so that they didn't run out of fuel.
Jack Kammer:So real men. Before World War I carried pocket watches, but when the fighter pilots found that it was rather inconvenient to dig into their pocket when they're in the middle of a fight to check their pocket watch and that it made much more sense to just be able to glance at their wrist, when those fighter pilots adopted wristwatches, all of the other men not fighter pilots, but just regular men in the cafes and in the restaurants and on the street saw these cool guys, very manly men, wearing wristwatches. Well OK, I guess wristwatches are cool and I won't worry about them making me look like I'm feminized.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, and it's going back to making men accepting their vulnerability and empathy and those kind of things as seeing that as cool. Like, who can we get to model that? So they'll see it's cool. And you know, that just reminded me because I did a show a couple of years ago or last year, I can't remember, but I saw this guy, real big, muscular, macho guy, and he had a T-shirt that said vulnerability is the new sexy and I'm like, yeah, I mean, that's the kind of man, we need to see wearing that t-shirt, yeah yeah, you know, things definitely are changing for the better.
Jack Kammer:I do see some retrenchment, though, on the part of women, some women who really were pretty happy with being able to catch an alpha male and be able to manipulate him to do exactly what she wanted. Meanwhile, he thinks he's the man in control, when he often doesn't realize that he's given up his power to her.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, I've seen it. And so who's feminized?
Jack Kammer:Right. He often doesn't realize that he's given up his power to her.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, and so who? And so who's feminized Right Exactly? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's also women out here and I've gotten this feedback too that they don't want their man being so vulnerable because they see it as weakness. And so if you're in a relationship like that, when the man already feels like showing vulnerability is weakness and their spouse or partner feels the same way, then good luck with that, and most of the women I've talked to are starving for it. But there are women that see their man as weak and they can't handle that because they want the alpha male to be strong and maybe conform, whatever you know.
Jack Kammer:Yes, yes. Now I know from listening to some of your shows that you're a big fan of Brene Brown.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, I like her. Yeah, I get a lot of good quotes from her. That's right.
Jack Kammer:Okay, so let me take this to the, to the top, and this is going to be a minute and 37.
Bill Simpson:Okay.
Jack Kammer:Okay, here we go.
Speaker 3:I was at a book signing and a couple came up to me and I signed four books for the woman and she grabbed him and she's walked away from the table and her husband, who was standing with her, stayed and she said come on, babe, let's go. And he said, no, I want to talk to her for a minute, meaning me. And she said, no, come on, let's go, let's go. And he said I'm going to talk to her for a second. And there was some tension in that conversation. He said I really, really liked everything. You said.
Speaker 3:I really like this idea of reaching out and telling our stories and showing up, but you didn't mention men. So I looked at him and I said I don't study men. And he said well, that's convenient. And he said because we have shame, we have deep shame, but when we reach out and tell our stories we get the emotional beat out of us. And he said and before you say anything about those mean fathers and those coaches and those brothers and those bully friends, my wife and three daughters, the ones who you just signed the books for, they had rather see me die on top of my white horse than have to watch me fall off. And then he just walked away.
Speaker 3:You know when truth hits you, it just hits you and you know what it is the second it comes to you. I knew that my research was going to be profoundly changed, and I knew that it was going to be difficult and painful and that I was going to learn things about myself that I probably didn't want to know. And that's exactly what happened. I remember driving home and having this moment where I was like, oh my God, I am the patriarchy, like I'm facilitating this, I'm participating in this. It's just a conversation that's way overdue. It sure is, yeah.
Jack Kammer:Okay, so I want to mention two things about that. Bill Number A she ended by saying she had a realization that she was the patriarchy.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, I heard that.
Jack Kammer:And to me that just is kind of mind-boggling.
Bill Simpson:Yeah.
Jack Kammer:That whenever there was a problem between men and women, there is no female power structure that can be complicit. All power is controlled by men, and so it must be the patriarchy Right. Not being willing to acknowledge that women have a lot of power, especially since the man told her look, it's my wife and my daughters who are sort of nudging me in a direction I don't really want to go. The second thing I want to say is that, to Brene Brown's credit, in the outtakes of this radio show it's called On being with Krista Tippett. It's a public radio show.
Jack Kammer:In the outtakes, which the show makes available on its website, renee Brown talks about how she has graduate students. She works at the University of Houston, I believe it is School of Social Work and she talked about how she has students, female students in social work, who will say, oh, I don't want a man who does that. No, I don't want that. And maybe I want to say a third thing. I might be wrong, but when she said she knew her research was going to be profoundly changed, I went looking for it and I'm not seeing a lot of new research on men coming from Brene Brown. Really, yeah, I might be wrong, maybe I'm missing it, but I've searched for it and I think it's understandable. She's got a really good thing going as a best-selling author.
Bill Simpson:Oh yeah.
Jack Kammer:Her book's read primarily by women, and women don't want to hear that they need to change in ways that might not be, you know, immediately in their self-interest. They want men to change.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, and that's where it goes, both ways, you know. I would say, and it's not one way or the other. And when you know, when women find out that I work with men, you know they're like oh man, they really need it. You know this, that and the third. And it is hard to get men to come on board. I can't deny that. Yet I always reply. I said it's women too.
Jack Kammer:I said, I just focus on men right now, and it goes both ways. If I were a man who was feeling like I needed coaching and therapy, you would be the one I would call.
Bill Simpson:Oh, thank you, man.
Jack Kammer:Really, from having listened to a few of your shows, you just have a really nice way about you Perfectly reasonable, patient, calm, humble, open-minded, thoughtful, insightful and I would trust you the check's in the mail man. Thanks, jack, I really appreciate that.
Bill Simpson:That does mean a lot to me hearing that from you. The check's in the mail man Thanks, jack. I really appreciate that. That does mean a lot to me hearing that from you. It really does. And you know, going back to the power of women and the patriarch comment, it's like this blind spot of not seeing the power that women actually do have. And what struck me too is the man's vulnerability to say what he said, you know, in a way that was palatable. You know he wasn't angry, it didn't sound like he got all upset and had a fit. It was just a very direct comment that was powerful. I mean, wow, what do you do with that? You know, as a man or as in his position, you know, what do you do with it? Where does he go?
Jack Kammer:Yeah, I hope he went away feeling he did what he needed to do and he felt good about it, even though he didn't get the reception and the response he had hoped for. But he did at least turn on a little light bulb in Brene Brown's head and I'm sure the comment has had some influence on her just not as much as you know I might hope.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, it makes me wonder if you know those who do the marketing and research and all say is that really where you want to go in terms of your target? You know at this level where she is. That's not really a judgment, it's just that's how it can be sometimes.
Jack Kammer:Well, it's an incentive. It's a strong incentive to keep doing what you're doing and she certainly has had a lot of success and I'm sure she's helped a lot of people.
Bill Simpson:And when I take her quotes it's in the context of that episode. So it's not, you know, brene Brown per se, it's the message that she was saying. So, with your male-friendly media, you know, you started a radio show. Tell me the story of how this evolved into a radio show.
Jack Kammer:Well, that very evening, after the second Tuesday night from the softball game, I went home. My girlfriend at the time was also a member of the co-ed softball team, not one of the two and I said to her you know, I think maybe I'm going to start a magazine, I'm going to call it Everyman, and I told her a little bit about the two conversations I had had for those two previous weeks and she said well, that sounds like a good idea, except printing is expensive, postage is expensive. Why don't you start a radio show? I said ah, yes, of course, what a great idea. And so I went to a student run station at Towson University north of Baltimore which was very I don't know, can you say eclectic. I guess was its format. It was so much fun, very loosey, goosey, crazy.
Bill Simpson:So you're on that station. Is that where you are now still?
Jack Kammer:No, no, I did it until 89. And then in 89, I sort of gave it up.
Speaker 3:I gave it up reluctantly.
Jack Kammer:I somehow got to meet the owner of WFBR and he liked it. The president, the owner of the station, wanted to put me on to bring my show from the college station to his commercial station. He wanted to put me on but he got overruled by his sales manager.
Bill Simpson:Oh, wow, yeah, I've had that happen.
Jack Kammer:Because his sales manager said nobody will buy this. Why? Because it'll make women mad.
Bill Simpson:And that was their target audience.
Jack Kammer:I think they were worried about how the women would take it out on the sponsors who bought the show.
Bill Simpson:Right.
Jack Kammer:Right, yeah. So I gave it up in 89 and I had a similar experience of being sort of X'd out when I had a book published in 1994 by St Martin's Press you know big time legit publishing house in New York. I did a book called Goodwill Twerk Men. It was a book of interviews with 22 women, most of whom identified as feminist, who were ready, willing and able to talk not just about women's disadvantages as women but women's advantages as well, as women but women's advantages as well. And not just willing to talk about men's advantages as men but men's disadvantages as well, sort of the missing half of the gender equation. Well, it was a pretty, pretty nice book that I put together. My editor was very excited about it, but just as it was being published there, was an uprising among the female staff at St Martin's.
Jack Kammer:Press. They refused to market it. You're kidding. No, I got canceled before. Canceling was a thing. That's crazy yeah it is crazy, and I don't think it's any better now and in fact I'm afraid it's worse.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, I think it's evolving to being worse at this point and for me, I'm just keep putting it out there. To me it's needed, there is an audience out there and we just got to keep putting it out there.
Jack Kammer:Yes, there is definitely a need and I have little doubt that you have saved the lives, literally.
Bill Simpson:Wow. Well, that's the purpose. It's the love mission to get it out there and open people's minds and hearts. And if they need to do the real work, then there we go. It's the love mission, you know, to get it out there and open people's minds and hearts, and you know, if they need to do the real work, you know then there we go.
Speaker 3:That's the work needs to be done.
Bill Simpson:And that's the hard part and a lot of men are afraid of that. You know, to self-reflect, and you mentioned the word shame. You know there's so much shame around. Oh, you know I'm a terrible man, you know, and I remember the comedian Louis CK just popped in my head, you know he would talk about God. We're just gross, you know. And why would women? You know, like it's just so much built-in shame that we have had over the years and I think it's just needed to get out there and to not be afraid to do the work that's required, the commitment to evolving. So when I asked the question, how's that working for you, you're like, yeah, it's starting to work. This does work, you know, versus not doing anything and thinking it's going to work.
Jack Kammer:Yeah, I think the whole notion of therapy in many men's minds raises the fear of an unlevel playing field. Yeah. Yeah, the therapist is sort of oriented around talking in ways that women like to talk and not so much interested in hearing a man talk and really understanding what the man is saying, or at least trying to say. And so you know I'm not going in there.
Bill Simpson:Yeah, my initial experience with therapy was rather negative. I had the therapist. He was a nice enough guy, but he was yawning in the middle of the session. He was looking at his watch. You know, like I felt like this is BS man, I'm not doing this. And a few years later a friend was referring me because I was going through stuff and I'm like I don't know about that. And thank God I did, because it absolutely changed my life and part of why I've chose to be a coach versus a therapist is to I'm not a therapist, you know, and that it's a different dynamic. And I'm here to help you today to move forward and try to make it as safe as possible where you feel comfortable to do the work, not coming in with a sense of shame, and all that that I can support.
Jack Kammer:That raises a question. Actually, that came up in my mind when I was listening to some of your shows and I was really interested to hear that therapists were referring some of their male clients to you for coaching some of their male clients to you for coaching. Yes, so you know, I had never really thought there was much difference between therapy and coaching, other than maybe an issue of licensure.
Bill Simpson:Well, there's certainly that.
Jack Kammer:I would love to know more about those.
Bill Simpson:I work at an integrative health center, so all of us are connected. I might have a primary care physician prefer their patient to me for maybe to get their blood pressure down. You know the more physiological stuff. And with the behavioral health and the therapists they refer to me to work with the mind, body, stuff. That I do, you know, with mindfulness, with self-compassion, where I really get into the work.
Bill Simpson:And it's not about me processing your childhood and all the things that are your past traumas. I may be aware of those traumas and I can say, all right, based on what you know about this, let's figure out how to work with it today and then how to respond to those today and then how to respond to those traumas, how to respond to those triggers and a therapist does this too. But I that's what I do, more so than all the processing that they can do, and my process is a little bit speedier than what they go through in their therapy experience. And then, when we're working together, I'm in contact with the therapist and, you know, with each other, and we're keeping track of how we can best support that patient. So it's a nice balanced approach.
Jack Kammer:Yes, yes, and I would imagine that for a lot of men, the idea of coaching seems much more immediate, more efficient, whereas they might think of therapy, where they have to go back to their childhood and process all of their traumas as a child, their adverse childhood experiences.
Bill Simpson:Who wants to bring that stuff up, you know.
Jack Kammer:Yeah, exactly, and a lot of men would think of that as oh my God, I don't want to wallow. Right, you must hear the word wallow a lot.
Bill Simpson:The fear of that? Yep, for sure. Yeah. So, jack, I really appreciate talking to you. I really enjoy this. We could probably talk for hours. I really appreciate you know the work you're doing and with your male friendly media. Any last words you'd like to say to our listeners before we wrap up?
Jack Kammer:Well, one thing I like to say that seems to get a good reaction from a lot of people is the question of what is a real man? Right? A lot of men struggle with that right, it's the whole issue of not being feminine, right, and I like to say that my definition of a real man is a man who does not care at all about anybody else's definition of a real man.
Bill Simpson:I love that. There you go, I'll take that. I got to remember that. I got to write that down.
Jack Kammer:All right, very good.
Bill Simpson:Well, Jack, if anybody wanted to get in touch with you or find out more about Male Friendly Media, how can they get in touch with you?
Jack Kammer:So it's. Malefriendlymediacom is my website. It's pretty much the hub of everything that I do and have done articles, books and I post links to these podcasts as well on this website. So malefriendlymediacom, all one word, no hyphen between male and friendly.
Bill Simpson:Okay, well, I'll make sure that that's in the show notes. I can't say how much I appreciate talking with you today, jack, and your positive feedback means so much to me, and I wish you continued success in all that you're doing.
Jack Kammer:Terrific. Can you keep up the great work?
Bill Simpson:Thank you, and that will wrap up this bonus episode of the Men on the Path to Love podcast Male-Friendly, love-ready Redefining Masculinity with Jack Kammer bonus episode. I'm Bill Simpson, your host. Thank you for listening and once again thanking my guest, jack Kammer, for a great conversation. You'll find the link to malefriendlymediacom in the show notes and before I go, I want to give a shout out to Anuj and the folks at Feedspot who have once again ranked Men on the Path to Love podcast in the Feedspot Top 70 Relationship Coach podcast. You can check where I rank by following the link in the show notes. All right, thank you again for checking out this bonus episode of the Men on the Path to Love podcast and remember until next time. Keep your heart open and stay on the path to love.